AI and Humor: The Future of Learning wit Melissa Looney | Ep #112

Wendy: Welcome, to Building Better Managers. I am your host, Wendy Hanson, and I am delighted to have you with me today to learn from some wonderful guests who are going to share their information and their brilliance and their experiences around management and leadership and building great teams in organizations. I am also the co-founder of New Level Work, so check us out. Newlevelwork.com thanks for tuning in. Greetings everyone.

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Wendy: This is Wendy.

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Wendy: Welcome to Building Better Managers. An announcement. Today we are taking a hiatus. Sometimes in life, new chapters are important and we have had such a wonderful time being able to share so many insights from leaders and managers over the past few years. But it's time to take a little break. We appreciate all of you who have tuned in over the years and given us some feedback. It's a wonderful thing and knowing that you can still go on newlevelwork.com and listen to all the past episodes if you haven't heard them. So today is our final and it's the end of 2024, and I'm wishing you such a happy 2025. And today we are replaying one of our broadcasts which is very relevant to.

Wendy: What we do at new level work.

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Wendy: Dr. Melissa Looney, who just got her PhD in Humor and AI, was one of our past guests before she got her doctorate. And learning about AI is really what 2025 is going to be about. New Level Work has a wonderful new product called Leora which integrates AI and coaching doing 360 feedback. So many products. So please go on our website and check that out. But let me remind you who Melissa Looney is so that you can enjoy her podcast today. She's the Director of Learning and Development and Engagement Strategies at Bentley University. She's responsible for providing employees with meaningful opportunities to continuously learn and grow from other members of the Bentley community. Melissa is a strategic and passionate Learning professional with 13 years’ experience on the faculty and staff, and she lives in Florida. She's an amazing person and she really brings so much growth to everybody around her. Her humor is exceptional. So I think you will enjoy this and you'll learn more about AI, which is so important for our future. So thank you. Tune in and I'll say goodbye at the end of the episode.

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Wendy: Our theme for 2024 is looking at trends that we're going to see next year. We know that AI artificial intelligence is a big trend. I don't think you can turn on the TV even without hearing something about it. Your organization or you personally may not be ready for it, but we need to be at least Curious. And, our last podcast, we shared some tools you can play with. Today I have a real treat for you, AI and humor. it's going to be fabulous. We have a special guest with us today, Melissa Looney, who is busy studying AI and humor. What a great topic. She'll share her research and we'll have some laughs on the podcast. Maybe we can get ChatGPT to tell us a joke. The best way to celebrate the season as we ease into 2024 is to do it with AI and laughter. So let me tell you about Melissa. Melissa Looney is Director of Learning Development and Engagement Strategies at Bentley University. She is responsible for providing employees with meaningful opportunities to continuously learn with. Pardon me, continuously learn with and from other members of the Bentley community. Melissa is strategic and passionate learning professional with 13 years of experience as a faculty and staff member in higher education. In addition to her professional experience, she is a doctoral candidate, which we'll hear more about at the University of Central Florida, where she studies strategic communication with an emphasis on communication in instructional contexts. Her dissertation focuses on humor and interpersonal interactions in instructional contexts and how emerging artificial intelligence can be used this powerful and innately human trait to communicate with others. She has been known to delightfully overwhelm people with her endless ideas and unbridled enthusiasm for the things that she loves. And that's just one of the things that makes her very special. And I've had the pleasure, pleasure of knowing Melissa for a while. She's on the partner council at our company and adds so much to everything she does. Welcome, Melissa.

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Melissa: Thank you, Wendy. That was such a wonderful introduction.

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Wendy: Yeah, well deserved.

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Melissa: Thank you.

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Wendy: So I'm excited to talk to you about this humor and AI today. And first, just generally, what do you see as the impact AI is having at universities?

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Melissa: Yeah. So, you know, I think higher ed, in terms of generative AI like ChatGPT, at first there was a real sense of concern, and kind of urgency to address those more like, nefarious ways in which AI, particularly ChatGPT, could be used. how are students using it to plagiarize or find answers that they probably should be figuring out with their own brains? And really, you know, when ChatGPT was hurled into the limelight in those higher ed contexts, I likened it to the reaction rather to villagers with pitchforks. Right. Like, it was a lot of like, well, what about. But I really think that since then people have softened, and kind of started to be more curious than afraid. And I think it's because of the sheer utility of the technology, I see a lot of discourse now around how it can be used to support teaching or to create content. But, also how can it be used to support learners? And I think there is a myriad of ways in which AI is impacting higher ed. But what I'm most interested in is the way generative AI and conversational agents like chatbots can help, provide learners with support or resources, sorry, resources, rather, in a really kind of on demand and psychologically safe environment. So you think about it this way. You forgot about when an exam takes place, you're too embarrassed to ask your professor, but if you ask a chatbot, you know, it can't really judge you. So I think it's just a really interesting emerging, technology in this context.

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Wendy: Yeah. Wow. It is. And we're not going to get away from it, so we better be curious and learn about it. So my big question. Why investigate humor?

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Melissa: Yeah. So before I jump into the long answer here, I have to admit that growing up with a last name like Looney really means cultivating a sense of humor pretty early in life. It's something that I think every member of my family has is a good sense of humor. Because again, last name like Looney, but humor is really so innate to the human condition. Right. We start laughing and experiencing humor as early as four months old, and that's before we can even speak or understand words. So it's just such an innate trait of who we are. And so I ask, why not study humor? You know, it's. Humor is human.

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Wendy: Yeah, it is. And go ahead.

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Melissa: I'll say. And I love using it with other people too. You know, I find it so bonding and so disarming. And that's not just anecdotal. Right. There's pretty strong support that, you know, using humor has major benefits in interpersonal interactions. It makes us more likable; it makes us more enjoyable conversational partners. It makes us feel more bonded with each other when we experience it together. so again, why not investigate humor?

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Wendy: Yeah. I love that because it's so true. If you think of having conversations with people and if you don't laugh at all, if there's nothing, if it's all very deadpan and serious, it's not really a good conversation. so, you know, we take it for granted. So I love that you're shining a light on it.

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Melissa: Thank you.

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Wendy: And what is the benefit of humor in learning environments? I think it's probably very, very important. Melissa, tell us about that.

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Melissa: Yeah, you know, learning is a Very heavily communicative process. It's super hard to learn anything without communication taking. And where interpersonal communication is concerned, the ways in which learner and instructor connect with one another has profound impacts. And that's pretty fascinating, right? That connection or lack thereof can impact learning, motivation to learn, affinity, affinity rather for a subject or even for the instructor. And so I think it's a really important element to study. And humor in particular has been researched, I'd say roughly since the 1970s where the classroom environment is concerned. And some of the positive outcomes that have been associated with humor use in general. Interpersonal communication also translates to those instructional settings. Increased likability, increased attention, our perceptions of competence. The, way it functions in any personal interaction really seems to translate to other particular contexts. And so I also would be remiss if I didn't just acknowledge the fact that it's nuanced, as is humor in general. It's really difficult to read anything about the benefits of humor without coming across the words double edged sword because it is right as connecting as humor can be, it can be equally divisive. And so I have to name that before I start cheerleading. The benefits of humor are that, you know, when I talk about those benefits, we're making sure that we understand that it's when it's experienced positively and not in that divisive way between people.

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Wendy: Yeah. And it's appropriate. You know, I turn in on some comedy, speakers on Netflix and it's like, whoa, you know, that's humor. But you're a little tough here, you know, so you got to know when your humor is really hitting the cord and when it's not.

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Melissa: And that's really true in learning environments. Right. Because we have certain expectations of the people who are teaching us. And so if you're using inappropriate humor, it can have the absolute polar opposite effect of the benefits of appropriate humor. So that is something that has been investigated and continue to be reinforced where humor studies are concerned.

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Wendy: Yeah. Because if somebody uses it inappropriately and is offensive, then even the next time they say something that might be funny, people will look at it and be like, weary of what's going to be said next.

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Melissa: Just as much as research has found that it bonds us. Like it's incredibly othering. You know, when you're at the butt of that joke or you're not in on the joke, it's just, it can be incredibly othering. Wow.

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Wendy: Yes. I love that word, othering. Yes. Because we don't want to make anybody feel like other. Yes.

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Melissa: No.

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Wendy: So how does this tie back to artificial intelligence? AI?

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Melissa: Yeah. So, you know, there are things we know about human to human communication and humor, but we aren't just communicating with humans anymore. Right. In terms of AI, I think this is bigger than humor. I think it's about understanding the impact on the users if you humanize this kind of technology and really finding out how we interact with it, what are the outcomes? Are the benefits similar or different to the human interaction type things that we see play out with humor? and really, when we talk about the impact of humanizing something like a chatbot, what is more human than humor? And again, I mentioned earlier that I'm interested in the emerging use of chatbots and conversational agents and generative AI in learning contexts. And I think, you know, an early understanding is super important and pretty valuable where practical application is concerned. And while there are a million lenses that you could examine artificial intelligence through, I just selfishly chose humor because I love it and it's fun and it's just something I could probably never stop talking about.

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Wendy: And you went before a committee at the university to talk about this, so just share a little bit of that because they agreed that this was a good thing to study.

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Melissa: Yeah, you know, it's really funny. Sometimes humor is a hard thing to sell. I got very lucky with my committee that they didn't look at me and say, who cares about humor? They were, you know, very. They have been and continue to be supportive of me following this. But I have had people before, especially in academics, you know, that just don't think it's a value. But again, they don't have that understanding of that. Just profound impact it has on communication. So I got some smarty pants on my committee. They know, they know it's important.

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Wendy: They know. They have a good sense of humor. They know that it's important. Yes, yes. Now, is AI capable of using humor? Maybe. Can you tell us a joke that you've heard that has come out of AI?

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Melissa: Yeah. So, you know, it's complicated, but yes, you know, roughly speaking, it is capable of using humor. And more than one person has referred to humor as this final frontier for AI. And it's just so nuanced and so human. And I think in its current state, AI can't fully use or comprehend humor in the same manner as a human can. With the lived experiences that you really have to have in order to wield humor to its fullest extent. AI is really great at jokes and puns and wordplay and things like that. That are canned and can be easily programmable. But, I think it's evolving every day. And I asked ChatGPT recently to use sarcasm, which is a super complex form of humor. Right. It's not can, it's a lot more difficult. And its response to me was, and this is verbatim, as an AI language model, I don't possess personal emotions or attitudes, including sarcasm. However, I can generate text that may convey a sarcastic tone or provide examples of sarcastic remarks upon request. And so I naturally requested it. I said, sure, give me a sarcastic sentence. Right. And his response was, oh, because waking up early on a weekend is exactly how I love to spend my time. It's the highlight of my week.

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Wendy: That's pretty good.

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Melissa: Yeah. So it could build that sentence, you know, and it contained sarcasm, but it was just totally out of context. Like, at no point had me and this ChatGPT agent been talking about sleeping or the weekend. It just was like, here is this random out of context sarcasm.

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Wendy: Yeah. But I appreciate that because that's something. You didn't have to set it up there. Yes.

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Melissa: Not every human is funny. So I give AI a little bit of a break. I know a lot of people who can't use sarcasm.

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Wendy: Right, right. That isn't offensive. Yes. And that was not offensive. Yes, exactly.

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Melissa: That was great fun from ChatGPT.

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Wendy: Yes.

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Melissa: Yes.

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Wendy: Right. And when you use it, sometimes you're able to put in like, make this humorous or make this funny when you're writing something. Is that correct?

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Melissa: Yeah, you can do that. And also, I mean, sometimes just for fun, I'll jump on and ask it, like, just tell me a joke, just to see what it comes back with. and I think the one we were talking about earlier is I said, tell me a joke about managers, because I figured that's appropriate. And it said, why did the manager bring a ladder to work? Because they wanted to climb the corporate ladder. So funny.

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Wendy: Well, that is the context. They're in the right context. It's just. That's like a five year old joke. Yeah. Yes.

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Melissa: And I mean, you can see that it's building. It knows the basic constructs of a joke and it can kind of build that, but it's just not. Again, it's that final frontier. It's not to the space we are as humans.

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Wendy: Yeah, yeah. but if you're trying to find a joke, maybe because you're giving a presentation, it's probably a good way to find things.

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Melissa: Or if you're a connoisseur of really bad dad jokes and Puns like I am. It's really good at helping you just expand your, you know, what I call treasure chests, some people might call weapons because they hate them. But it can do puns really well. And so sometimes I do that for fun as well.

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Wendy: Right, right. Yeah. Dad jokes. We always hear about dad jokes out there.

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Melissa: I love a good dad joke. I love it.

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Wendy: Great. Now what do you think you're going to find out as the result of your dissertation?

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Melissa: No. So I think some of the benefits in human to human communication are probably going to be true of human to machine communication. I've done a little bit of preliminary research that shows that we do find funny chatbots likable, or rather more likable than a chatbot that doesn't use any humor at all. And I feel like as humans, we can appreciate humor regardless of the humanity of the source. Right. Even just us joking at that manager joke, we're still laughing even though we knew it was stupid. We were like, ah, that's so stupid. So I think that that likability will be enhanced. And I always think about when Siri came out, how it didn't take users long to start asking her questions that they thought would produce humor. And the best part about it is you could tell that the programmers had also thought about that because she would respond with something funny. So that always made me feel like, oh, Siri, so funny. And so I think again that likability is really something that I'm going to see increase. But you know, what does that even mean for the use of the technology? And that's what I'm more unsure about and more fascinated by. Right. You know, okay, you have a likable chat bot. Now what? Right. Likable people can be highly influential and able to make us comply with requests. But what about a machine? Right. Can it be more influential if it leverages human characteristics like humor? I don't know. Right. But that's something I'm super interested to see that beyond that increased likability, what are the consequences?

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Wendy: Yeah. and how else can we, you know, the layperson like me use the chatbot or anything else to be able to bring humor to a situation? Because I totally agree with you, especially in teaching and instructional design, you know, if you can be, you know, have a sense of humor, and I'm making this up, but I'm thinking that there's neuroscience that says when you laugh at something, you have more of ability to remember it.

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Melissa: Is that true? Yeah. And again, humor is so interesting where research is concerned because it just goes across every single field and every single discipline I looked at from a communication standpoint. But there are neuroscientists who look at it from their standpoint and psychology and sociology, and it's just. It's everywhere. Right. But what they find and what we find is often very similar. We just measure them differently. So. Yeah, I would be very surprised if that was not the case.

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Wendy: Yeah. Yeah. Well, hopefully someone else, or maybe this will end up to be part of your dissertation. How it. How it impacts the brain and how the brain.

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Melissa: I would love to do that. That's. Again, I come from a very humble communication background. But if a neuroscientist out there wants to team up with me and offer me that expertise, I am here and ready.

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Wendy: Okay. Well, I have a colleague of mine who is a neuroscientist, Dr. George woods, who's also very connected with our company. I will bring up humor to him and ask him if we can get some feedback on that.

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Melissa: I love that.

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Wendy: Ah. From Dr. Woods. Yes.

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Melissa: I also love the idea of loony and woods. Like, looney Woods.

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Wendy: It just seems like a place you.

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Melissa: May want to go. Like, I don't know, that's your sense.

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Wendy: Of humor and that you bring into all your work. Yes. Okay. See, that would have never occurred to me. Go into the loony woods.

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Melissa: Well, if you had been born a loony, it probably would.

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Wendy: Oh, yeah. I can imagine that you have taken a lot of grief, for that, especially as a child. Yes.

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Melissa: Yeah. You know, I learned to just beat him to the punch, to be the first person to make the joke. And I think that's why I cultivated such a sense of humor. Because if you do it first, then it just takes away all the power for anybody to make the joke about you.

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Wendy: Right, right. Did you have Looney Tunes, T shirts or something, too?

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Melissa: Oh, when I was a little kid, Looney Tunes was really popular and having, like, T shirts was really popular. And I don't think people even thought twice about it because it was just everywhere. But. Yeah, yeah.

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Wendy: You didn't have your own private collection. Okay.

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Melissa: No, but I did like telling kids that Bugs Bunny was my uncle and see how far I could get with that.

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Wendy: Yes, yes. Well, yes, Dr. Looney. Yes. When you're Dr. Looney.

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Melissa: Dr. Looney of humor. I can't wait.

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Wendy: Oh, yes. I can just see, like, what the caricature would be for Dr. Looney of Humor. Yes.

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Melissa: I would be lying if I said that it wasn't about 97% of the reason why I'm getting this PhD is to become Dr. Looney. Like, yeah, the research is fun, whatever, but Dr. Looney, come on. Had to do it.

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Wendy: Okay. Oh, I can't wait. I can't wait to be calling you Dr. Looney. I won't use it too much right now because we don't want to knock on wood. Yeah, we don't want to push that, but yeah. So, Melissa, what's one way you'd like to extend this research after it's done? Because now you're doing the hard work, but there's got to be, like, what's over the rainbow? And I won't sing.

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Melissa: Okay. I was just going to ask if you would just give me at least a little verse.

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Wendy: I'm always told to stop, so I won't do that to you.

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Melissa: Yes, fine. You know, I have to admit that a lot of academic research is often conducted in these, and rightfully so. This is not a criticism that I'm leveraging, but it's in these fabricated or kind of lab environments. and I think the same is true of my research. But I would really love to move these funny chatbots out of this lab fabricated environment and get them into real environments. Right. You know, what are the implications of that? Are they different than what I find? You know, I really have no idea. But I think that real life application and investigation is probably the next step. Right. What does this mean in a lab environment? How do we take it out into the real world?

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Wendy: Yeah, because when I think of somebody's, very scientific dissertation, you know, sometimes it doesn't always get to see the light of day. You know, only the people that worked on it, maybe their parents, you know, that are proud, but. But not the rest of the world. So how. Think about some creative ways, because you're very creative that you would get this out in the world afterwards.

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Melissa: You know, I am incredibly fortunate because I occupy two spaces right now. I occupy my space as a student, as a doctoral candidate who's very grounded in that, you know, academic research that doesn't see the light of day. But then at the same time, I'm a learning and development practitioner. So I'm surrounded by people who are out there doing, you know, the practical application and looking at things from a more practical standpoint. And what I think is so unfortunate sometimes is that there's not a bridge between those two audiences. and I would love, you know, to kind of serve as that bridge and just take what I. What I do in one area of my life and be able to bring that into the other area of my life so that it's not just dying on the vine in some library in the University of Central Florida. You know, instead it is seeing some kind of practical application. But, you know, I'll TBD let you know how that turns out.

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Wendy: Yeah. when do you think your project will be complete?

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Melissa: Yeah, so, that's a good question. So I would love to say May 2024. but as any doctoral candidate will tell you, blueprints for the future are a fool's errand, Ron Swanson said that, not me. So I am preparing for any and all possible setbacks. And so, to be safe, we'll say August 2024. But best case scenario, may.

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Wendy: Okay, well, I would be even more general and say sometime in 2024, because I was thinking with all the work you have to do.

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Melissa: Yes, that's a brilliant response. I'm just going to.

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Wendy: Yeah, sometime in 2024. Yeah, just stay tuned because, And you'll have lots of good 2024 jokes.

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Melissa: I love that. Thank you.

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Wendy: Now, you must have certain things that are really important to you. So if you could build a chatbot mimicking one comedian's brand of humor, who would it be?

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Melissa: Oh, Conan O'Brien, hands down. I don't even have to think about it. I joke all the time that my entire personality is 50% my parents, 10% Fred Rogers, and the rest is Conan O'Brien. I just. I love him so much. And when I was growing up, I used to get in trouble for staying up too late and watching him. And my mom knew I was doing it because she could hear me laughing from the other room. And so she. The next morning, she would. I heard you laughing, and I'd say, I know you're watching Conan because only Conan makes you laugh like that. So if I could get a chatbot to be Conan O'Brien, if I could. Well, if I could get it to be him but then also have his hair, I think it would probably be unstoppable.

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Wendy: Wow. See, now, this is a way to get it out in the world once you're finished in 2024, to let Conan O'Brien know that, you know. And what is it about his humor? Because I have to say, I must have a different sense of humor because I listen to him sometimes, and I'm like, what does he mean?

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Melissa: I know. Well, there's so. There's the what just gets me and makes me laugh. Sometimes I think he's so ridiculous that I just can't, like he just hits me just the right way that I laugh so hard. But the other thing I really like about him is that it's never, he never punches down. Right. And he's been in Late Night and Late Night, they are notorious for monologues where they're punching down and he seems to just have a little bit more integrity and he's more likely to have self-deprecating humor than he is to just make certain jokes that I think are, you know, take all the fun out of it. So I've just always admired and respected that about him. But at the end of the day it's just he's so silly. And that's my perfect brand of humor.
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Wendy: The silliness. Yeah.

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Melissa: Silly. Yep.

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Wendy: Yeah. So for our listeners, if people want to kind of try out humor on AI, what would they do? What would be the steps that you would say? Give this a try.

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Melissa: So I think first and foremost, just from a fun perspective, find whatever AI it is, whether it's Siri on your phone or whether it's, you know, Alexa or whether it's ChatGPT and just start asking it to tell you jokes about things. that's one way that I think is super simple and fun. It's not as good as when Siri surprises you with a joke when you don't know she's going to say something funny and then she does. That element of surprise is so much better. But when you prompt her, she, And then just as you were saying earlier about with content creation. Right. If I'm creating a speech or I'm creating an email or something of that nature, I can plug it into ChatGPT and say, add humor to this. But just keeping in mind that the humor might be like, you're going to need to proofread the humor, make sure it doesn't have the opposite effect on your audience and they just groan and hate you after that.

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Wendy: Yeah. Especially in an email, you're asking somebody to do something and then you try to throw in a little joke to soften the blow.

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Melissa: Yeah. Again, humor is a double edged sword. And that's what it is.

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Wendy: It is. That's good to know. Well, I am gonna. What I take from this is I am gonna make sure that I go on and do that. And I have to say that Siri has never told me a joke and apparently I have not been saying the right things to Siri. Yes.

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Melissa: Well, I will tell you, this is a spoiler alert if you want to know the prompts that get her to say things that are funny. You can Google, like, what. What prompts make Siri tell jokes, and there are websites out there that will tell you exactly what to say to her, and then she'll come back. It's not as good as finding it on your own, but it's still a fun way to explore. And like I said, even just thinking about how the programmer sat back and said, we should make her respond with this is just, I love it.

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Wendy: Right. When you picture them all sitting there with heads down, writing code and saying, we need to give Siri a sense of humor again.

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Melissa: Humor is everywhere. Even when your head's down coding, you're still thinking about humor. It is human. It is human.

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Wendy: Yes. Human. And humor, that's what we have to remember. And, I think in all of our interactions, when we. When we care about a situation and people and, you know, we want to have that humor there and just show up as authentic and humorous. Yeah, definitely. That's great. So, besides, you know, we're going to reach out to Conan O'Brien in the future. I can't wait for that. That's wonderful. You know, maybe we'll get him on a podcast and you can tell him about that.

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Melissa: Or, better yet, we'll go on his podcast.

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Wendy: Oh, that's even better. Yes, but we'll do some marketing on that. But for now, if people want to learn more about what you're doing or they have questions for you, what's the best way for them to reach out to you? Melissa?

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Melissa: Yeah. You know, I am one of those people who. I love connecting on LinkedIn, you know, unless it's obviously a sales pitch, that's one of them. because I love connecting with people. It's one of the most depressing things in the world when I get a request and the person doesn't really want to talk and make a connection, they just want to sell me something. But if you want to connect on LinkedIn, I very rarely say no to a genuine request. And I'm always happy to nerd out and to talk about this stuff, as long as. Just the caveat of we're still halfway through, we don't know what we're going to find, and I can't give the answers just yet, but theoretically, I'm happy to discuss it at any time.

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Wendy: Yeah, well, I would be curious of. I'm the same as you. If I say yes to someone on LinkedIn, and then all of a sudden I get it back, that says, oh, would you like to learn about this program that I Have we need to find something humorous to say to that.

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Melissa: Yes, I know, because.

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Wendy: Yeah, yeah. Something not too snippy, but snippy enough to say, this is not the purpose that I said yes to you. So, yeah, absolutely. You're getting me thinking a lot about humor now, Melissa. Thank you. Thank you.

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Melissa: You're welcome. And maybe we could program artificial intelligence to immediately respond back to a sales message with a joke. Yeah.

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Wendy: Yeah, Right. Yeah. And, yeah, we know children get away with telling so many different jokes and everybody laughs. So I think our AI should and for everybody, AI is in our future. And, I love how Melissa has brought it down to the human level, thinking about how we can laugh and how we can really find that, because it's an important part of how we connect with each other. And at our company, you know, we do a lot of coaching and training, and, you know, I am sure our coaching calls are confidential, but I am sure there is humor in those calls because that's how people really see. Oh, yeah, that. Oh, I'm doing that. That's interesting that I do that. Isn't that funny? so there are many ways that humor is used, and we just love being innovative in our company and hope that as you listen to this, you're going to think of ways to integrate it. So I am very excited to share this as one of our big trends for 2024, and that's going to be a big year for you. You're going to have to put a 2024 T shirt with Loony Bird on it.

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Melissa: Yes, loony bird.

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Wendy: Dr. Looney Bird. Oh, yes. Even better.

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Melissa: Good.

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Wendy: Oh, all right. Well, if you want to learn more about Better Manager and you want to listen to this podcast and other podcasts like it, you can go on bettermanager.us. And, there'll be a lot of things changing for Better Manager, too, in the new Year. So. But if you go on there, you'll still get sent to us. So I appreciate you all listening today and wishing you all the best. And thank you so much, Melissa, soon to be Dr. Looney, for your contribution to what is really important to us as humans as we go into this holiday season. And for those listening in the new year. New Year is a great time to have a sense of humor, because sometimes things don't always work out as we plan.

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Wendy: thank you so much, Melissa Looney, for sharing your knowledge. Dr. Looney has done a great job, and please look her up and connect with her on, LinkedIn. We really think that there's so much to learn that we can never stop growing and learning as leaders. So please go on our website, newlevelwork.com and learn more about Leora and see what you can do in 2025. Our thoughts are with you. Happy New Year to everybody. You're always welcome to reach out to me on LinkedIn. Wendy Hanson H A N S O N and I would love to chat with you. Have a wonderful day. Thank you for joining us today. For more information, show notes, and any downloads from today's podcast, please visit newlevelwork.com we would also be so appreciative if you'd write a review. Go on to newlevelwork.com review and you can write a review on your favorite podcast app. It makes a big difference because we want to really grow managers and leaders around the world, and we need your help.

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Wendy: Thank you so much.

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Wendy: Have a wonderful day.

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