Dr. Julie Pham: Building Better Relationships Through Respect (Encore) | Ep #116

Wendy (00:01):

Welcome to Building Better Managers. I am your host, Wendy Hanson, and I am delighted to have you with me today to learn from some wonderful guests who are going to share their information and their brilliance and their experiences around management and leadership, and building great teams in organizations. I am also the co-founder of New Level Work, so check us out at https://www.newlevelwork.com/. Thanks for tuning in.

Announcer (00:30):

Welcome to Building Better Managers. We're thrilled to bring you an encore presentation of one of our most impactful episodes. This conversation remains especially relevant today, and we're excited to share it with you. Again, whether it's your first time tuning in or you're revisiting this standout episode, we're sure it will spark new insights to help you grow as a leader. Let's get started.

Wendy (00:52):

You can all have good processes in an organization, but if you don't develop good positive relationships, it's almost impossible to get the work done. So we want to have productivity in companies, but we need relationships. One of our strong values at Better Manager is community. We create a culture of belonging, care and growth for one another. And for those that we serve today, we are going to focus on respect in relationships and how they serve us at work and in our lives. Because we know that everything about relationships and what we learn as we're coaching execs, they always say, wow, this really helped me in my personal relationships too. So I know as you're listening to this about respect, it's going to show up in different parts of your life. So let me tell you about my guest. Dr. Julie Pham is the founder and the CEO of a curiosity based and organizational development firm based in Seattle.

(01:51):

She is the author of the number one Amazon New Release and bestseller, seven Forms of Respect, A Guide to Transforming Your Communication and Relationships At Work. Dr. Pham has been recognized with numerous awards for her community leadership. She has applied her community building approach to building strong, collaborative and curious teams. She was born in Saigon, Vietnam, and raised in Seattle. Dr. Pham earned her PhD in history at Cambridge University as a Gates Cambridge Scholar, and she graduated Magna Cum Laude from University of California Berkeley. As a has scholar, she has earned her real life MBA by running her family's Vietnamese language newspaper during the 2008 to 2010 recession. She has worked as a journalist, historian, university lecturer, marketer, nonprofit executive and management consultant. So she has lots of great degrees, experience and also the School of Hard Knock. So welcome, Julie. I'm so glad to have you on the podcast.

Julie (03:02):

Wendy, thank you so much for inviting me. I'm excited to have this conversation.

Wendy (03:06):

Yes, I think it's such an important conversation, and I love the way that you really think about respect. And how did you get to begin thinking that respect was such a key component in relationships? There are many things that can show up in a relationship, but where did that begin for you?

Julie (03:22):

It came from what people told me. So from my community building work, I would notice that there would be friction that would emerge from the different way that people wanted to be treated. Like, ah, they're not respecting me, or I can't believe they're doing this or that. And then once I started to do my research, I first asked, well, how do you want to be treated at work? And then people kept using the word respect. And so that's why I honed in on respect, because then I realized they mean different things by respect. Because once I asked, Hey, what do you mean by that? Describe that to me, then people would start to describe different behaviors, and that's when I started to get really interested in, well, what does respect mean and what does it look like?

Wendy (04:02):

Yeah. And I can hear that if you're doing community work and people say, I just want to feel respected, but it's more than that, and I love that. I think everybody listening is going to be able to take this and think about parts of it and how it fits into their relationships at work and in their life. So generally speaking, what are the seven forms of respect? And then we're going to go into them.

Julie (04:24):

So generally speaking, it's a framework to communicate what you need and also to understand what other people need in terms of respect. And this stems from my work on curiosity and practicing curiosity, which is all about increasing self-awareness, building relationships across difference, and communicating clearly and sparking conversations.

Wendy (04:44):

And I love curiosity as a coach. Curiosity is one of our foundational skills that you need to develop as a coach to really be curious. So I love how that shows up here and it showed up in your work. And how do you know what people need in terms of respect? How did you begin? You were hearing people say things, but as we go through the list, what should we be thinking about? What do other people need and appreciate as a form of respect? How do we figure that out?

Julie (05:13):

Well, first, I actually encourage people to ask themselves what they need before they ask other people. So before you ask, Hey, what do you need? What do you want? I have to ask myself, how do I want to be respected? How do I like to give respect? How do I like to get respect? And then once I'm actually aware of that for myself, then I can have that conversation with other people because then it becomes a conversation of learning. Then, hey, well, how do you think of respect and how should we be in this interaction? And then maybe when we're with a larger group, how does that look? And then to share what you like to get so that it's that back and forth.

Wendy (05:46):

Yeah. Well, it is always, if we can look at ourselves and understand that a little bit better, then we're better off being able to ask other people. So let's go through them, the seven forms of respect. And I love that you have little scenarios and thoughts and case studies on each of them so that people can figure out, wow, that's me, or that's somebody else I know. So the first one is procedure. So tell me about that.

Julie (06:13):

So procedure is about adhering to established rules and norms. And so for those who procedure, for example, if you are having a meeting and you send out an agenda and you send out prep work, are you the kind of person who wants people to do that prep work or there's some people who just like, I know you're so busy, I just, it's an fyi, but it's not a big deal. You don't actually feel disrespected if they don't do the prep work. It's like a nice bonus if they do do the prep work. But for some people, it's really important that they did the prep work and that people will feel respected if they see that people prepared as they were asked, or even if, Hey, I'd like you to do it in this particular way. And some people are just, well, I got it done. Why do I have to do it in your way? Isn't the result more important than the process where procedure is actually, the process is really important.

Wendy (07:03):

So that one is really about process. And when your first example of, well, you could do it if you want, or this is how I want it done, how do you say that? Even if you're going to send somebody that agenda that is very clear, how do you put down your expectations so that you're respecting them and you're respecting yourself.

Julie (07:24):

Just saying, here's the prep work, and I would really like you to prepare in this way. And then also at the meeting to ask about it to actually have some accountability too, because sometimes people, if they're not asked about the prep work, then they think it's not important to do. And so for you to even show if you're running the meeting, Hey, I actually not only want you to do the prep work, I will make sure that it was valuable for you to do the prep work because it's going to be important to this meeting.

Wendy (07:51):

Oh, I love that. And I love that if we're clear about it upfront so that people understand the why and the expectations, then they're more likely to do it. So we really disrespect somebody if they're very much into procedure and we don't follow it. So that's a form of disrespect.

Julie (08:07):

Yes. Think of disrespect or lack of respect in the way that that's important to them. You can feel disrespected, but if the other person just didn't realize that it was important to you, then it's a lack of respect. I think that there is a distinction between lack of respect versus disrespect, which feels a bit, which is more intentional.

Wendy (08:23):

Thank you, that's a good clarification. Lack of respect. And we want to be able to, part of this is understanding what people need and then show respect for that. Great. So the next thing we have procedure, and the next one is punctuality. Oh, this I think is a big one. This shows up in a lot of places,

Julie (08:42):

And this one is about honoring time constraints, which is different from honoring time and the value of time. So this one is if you know that there's going to be a meeting and come early to actually prepare that the projector is working and that the laptop is running, and that the sound so that the meeting can actually start on time and you'll let someone know, Hey, I'm running late. And then you may even say also the time constraints. Hey, we have five minutes until this meeting ends, just kind of giving a warning. Now, in the US this is considered in many places, this is considered really important. When I lived in Germany, oh my gosh, that was so important. When I lived in Vietnam, there's a phrase, time is rubber. And so this is why sometimes people ask me, isn't punctuality just obvious? And it's like, no, it's actually, it is relative. There are some people where the time constraints isn't as important as the time that we spend together.

Wendy (09:39):

That's such a great nuance there that you point out in so many global organizations, we cannot hold the expectations of, say, the US and the way the US and Germany and a number of other countries the way they hold time, and we need to be sensitive to that. Correct?

Julie (09:57):

Yes. And also, Wendy, I mean, I worked at a company where people would get triple booked for meetings. There's no way that they could be on time. So even thinking about the conditions of your company, are you setting up an expectation that you actually can't meet?

Wendy (10:11):

I've heard a number of companies, I don't know how successful they've been, but they don't have one hour meetings. They'll have 50 minute meetings or 45 minute meetings, and they'll stick to it because especially now that we're very virtual, it's really hard to go from one meeting to the next and not be able to stand up, go do something really, really important. So that time, how we hold time is a form of respect too, correct?

Julie (10:37):

Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Wendy (10:39):

So we had, and I'm going to keep repeating these so that everybody who's listening gets them. The first one was procedure. If you were here, I would test you. The second one is punctuality, and the third one is information. Tell us about information.

Julie (10:52):

So information is open and easy, access to data, to knowledge to information. And so what this could look like is CCing people on emails, even if they don't need to be on that email thread, inviting people to meetings, even though they don't need to be at that meeting. And it's actually not important for them to be there or not. It's just like you just want them, Hey, FYI, and a lot of this is FYI. There's not an ask or an action for them. Now, for some people, for example, for me, I'm actually in information on a need to know basis only. So I actually don't like to be CC'd. I don't like to CC people unless there's an action for them. But for other people, they feel, I'm not included. You don't respect me. Why didn't I know even? It's just like, but I didn't want to fill your inbox.

(11:43):

And so this is actually something that for some companies, it's this expectation that no, share the information, you'll have access to all of these drives and you can poke around. And for other people, it's like, no, that information is, we're going to be very selective about who gets what information. And for those who information, it could feel secretive, it could feel exclusive. They could feel like they're not getting respect in the way that they want. And for people who like me, just information on need to know basis, I'm like, I'm respecting your time. I'm thinking about your time. I don't want to overwhelm you. I don't want to flood your inbox. So this is actually one of the forms of respect that gets the most controversy around, at least when I do it with groups in the us.

Wendy (12:27):

And it brings up a question for me. If you are working in an organization and do you say, well, I know that these four people really like to just FY, I stay in the know, so they're not missing something and these others, so do you have to really think through who's going to be on your list and really understand what their need is for information?

Julie (12:50):

And so Wendy, actually, what I like to do with teams is to establish, to help teams determine what are your teams forms of respect. And that actually is to align that with what is needed for the shared purpose, for the nature of your work. Do you actually need to inform everyone? And if it's not, then maybe we can deprioritize that. But if it is, then let's prioritize that. And then there are individuals on that team that maybe don't like it or it, and then they can go with, well, this is what we decided is going to be best for the team based on our shared work. And so it kind of depersonalizes it from like, oh, well, I know these four people like it, but these six people don't. And I have to keep that. That's exhausting. So it's more about trying to figure out what it is at the team level. And so information is typically one of those that I really push teams to decide, Hey, do you actually want, do you know what it means? And do you want this or not?

Wendy (13:46):

Yeah. Well, I love that example. Use your team, use the wisdom of the crowd to be able to decide what's going to be out there.

Julie (13:53):

And it's not about voting, it's about deciding what is the work we need. And does having that form of respect support that work? It's not about, oh, well, six people like it and four people actually,

Wendy (14:05):

Does it support our work?

Julie (14:06):

Yeah,

Wendy (14:06):

Would it add value to the work that we do? Exactly. Yeah. Oh, that's great. And candor. Candor is the next one. So we have procedure, punctuality, information, and now candor.

Julie (14:17):

Yes. So candor is similar to information, but the change is it's information with a purpose to activate change. It's feedback. So information is like FYI, you do with it what you want. You might not do anything with it, but candor is like, I'm giving you this information with the expectation that there's going to be some kind of change. And so this could look like constructive feedback, both solicited and unsolicited. This could look like playing devil's advocate. It could look like asking challenging questions. So with candor, what's really interesting is that it could be hard. So I get teams like, no, we need to have candor. We need to have candor. And then when I actually get them to practice candor, oh man, they're like, I don't like candor. This doesn't feel good. And then we get into a discussion, I'm like, well, is it something that you really need? And you've decided that you need it for the work, and so you have to get comfortable with it, or it's actually not in your top three. And what I think is really challenging with this particular form of respect, and I see this with CEOs, is they want to think that they are good at giving candor. And sometimes I find out through my work they're not, but they like to think of themselves as. And so with the forms of respect, there's this part of what I aspire to give and what I actually feel comfortable giving.

Wendy (15:41):

Explain a little bit more about giving candor. When I think about candor, I think of pure honesty.

Julie (15:47):

So there's that giving the solicited or unsolicited feedback. So, Hey, I got to let you know your writing. You are a poor writer, and these are ways to improve your writing. Some people could feel like, I don't want to say that I'm going to hurt their feelings. And yet if the other person that's constructive feedback. And so some people feel comfortable giving it and some people don't feel comfortable giving it. And it's just important for us to recognize what is something that is so important to us to give that we'll do no matter what versus the things that we'll give because we know someone else wants it and we only do it because someone else wants it. And Wendy, I want to also point out here, I talk about giving and getting, because actually one of the dimensions of the forms of respect is that there's a difference between the way people like to give respect and the way they like to get respect. And so for example, I mean, I know for me, I am much better about getting candor than giving candor. And there are some people who like to give candor but don't like to get candor. And so to recognize that there is actually a difference,

Wendy (16:47):

I can see that. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So the giving and the getting of candor, you have to know, and you have to know what other people expect of you and how they can, for the sake of why are we going to give somebody candor in terms of their feedback or constructive feedback in a way they can hear it

Julie (17:06):

Some people, because there's that difference. I remember I gave candor to this woman who would give it to me, and then I found out she didn't like to get it. She could give it but not get it. So

Wendy (17:15):

Yeah, great distinction. So the next one is consideration. What is that form of respect called consideration?

Julie (17:22):

So consideration is the most complex of all of the forms of respect because this one is acting on what you think the other person wants and needs. And so this is anticipating their wants and needs. This could be surprising someone I think that I want to delight this person, and so I'm not going to ask them. I just want to do it. And so the reason why this is complicated is because as the person who's the receiver, what the person did, that's so considerate. If I didn't like what the person did, that's so inconsiderate. And so we try to separate the outcome with the intention. The intention is to think of what that person wanted. So I'll give you an example in the workplace. So imagine someone comes back from family leave and they're just, I'm exhausted, I'm so tired, I can't take on any more work.

(18:14):

And then their boss is just, well, man, I really want to give this person this assignment that I know would be interesting and challenging, but they keep talking about how exhausted they are, so I better not, I'm going to give it to their colleague. And so then they find out, oh, well, my colleague gets this really cool assignment. And so one person may say, oh, thank you. I'm so grateful that they didn't ask me to do that work because I'm really tired right now. Or you might say, I can't believe they didn't ask me, even if I was going to say no, I want it to be asked. So that's where consideration, it's that anticipating what someone wants and needs without asking them.

Wendy (18:54):

Without asking them. Yes.

Julie (18:56):

And here's the thing, Wendy, one of the things that we have in all of these examples, the book is both based on the workplace and the next book, I will talk about personal life because I think that I know for me, consideration is not a form of respect at work, and yet it is for me in my personal life.

Wendy (19:12):

Yes. Oh, I like that distinction too. It is going to show up differently. Yeah. I had an example of this by a friend recently. Her partner of just probably less than a year had said, what do you want for your birthday? And she's like, I don't want to tell you what I want for my birthday. No, I'm not going to tell you. And he kept trying to, please tell me what you would like and I'll get you what you want. No, surprise me. It was almost to the point that she had to keep pushing back. It was no fun whatsoever. And he was like anything she said he would've given her, but that was not how she wants that form of respective consideration.

Julie (19:53):

That's such a good example, Wendy. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, she wanted consideration. He was like, oh,

Wendy (19:59):

What do you want? What do you want? I want to give you what I want. Yes, yes. So the next one is acknowledgement.

Julie (20:06):

So acknowledgement is verbal expressions of gratitude, of praise, and it can also be of confirmation even of just a communication. So it could be, for example, let's say I send you a message and there's actually no need for you to respond because there's no action. I'm wanting acknowledgement. It's like, Hey, thanks. I'm like, you actually don't need to send that to me, but I want to get that acknowledgement, that little. That's one example. And it could also just be some people get really embarrassed by acknowledgement, actually. So I think in the US, there's lots of praise, there's lots of, you're awesome, wonderful work. And then let me publicly acknowledge you in front of all of your coworkers. And for those who don't want to get that form of acknowledgement, they actually feel cringey, they feel embarrassed. They're just like, I wish you didn't do that. And if you really give and getting acknowledgement, this is where we will apply what we think to other people,

Wendy (21:01):

What we think we assume other people will like it, and it really rubs against other people the wrong way. Oh yes, we've heard this type of thing a lot. That's really important to understand and to figure out that is personal. That's something I have to understand. If you really want to have this, Julie, I need to understand that I really need to thank you and say, what I really appreciate about what you did was you were so clear and articulate on our podcast that you got your message across so great. And that will make you feel like, oh, okay, what I said was very worthwhile. And I'll say that again, I'll use that again.

Julie (21:40):

Yes, yes. That's a good example of acknowledgement. Thank you, Wendy.

Wendy (21:43):

You're welcome. You're welcome. And it's the truth. Yes, of course. And the last one is attention.

Julie (21:49):

Oh, this one is a really interesting one, considering working remotely. So this one is about listening carefully, not multitasking, right? I, and I think that the working remotely has really changed that. So because one of the things when we ask people, what does respect mean to you? So many people brought up, I want to be listened to. I don't want to be interrupted. I want to feel heard. And I will say, I've also talked to people, what's the big deal with multitasking? And some individuals think of it as a sign of performance. It's like I am able to do all these things at once. I am a high performer. I worked at a company where multitasking was so prevalent. You'd go into a meeting and people would be literally on two devices and someone would be talking, and that was okay. And so I think it's really important actually for teams and for companies to say, this is acceptable behavior. We are okay with multitasking. Attention is not a form of respect. We prioritize or to say it is a form of respect that is prioritized here. And then that means that you understand that it takes work. And with all of these forms of respect, they take work.

Wendy (22:56):

They take work to acknowledge them, to understand that, to practice.

Julie (23:01):

Them, to practice them, to actually, it's easy to say.

Wendy (23:04):

It

Julie (23:06):

So easy to be like, we shouldn't multitask. And yet I'm like, the phone's just over there. I'll just check that one. It beeped. I'll just quickly check. They're not going to notice that I'm checking my text message. You're multitasking.

Wendy (23:21):

And we know from a neuroscience perspective that that's not good. If we can stay focused on something, we are much better. At least that's one school of thought than if you're doing five things at the same time. So while we've had procedure, punctuality, information, candor, consideration, acknowledgement, and attention, what is your favorite form of respect for yourself?

Julie (23:44):

I would say is really high acknowledgement is really high. And also candor in punctuality. I am the kind of person who will tell people I'm late, even if I know that they're going to be late and they're constantly late. And also I have all these stories behind each of them. And it's important to think about why do we care about those things? Wendy, what about you? An issue? What's popping up for you?

Wendy (24:06):

Punctuality is important for me, especially in my personal life. I've known people that you just knew they were always going to be late and it just didn't feel respectful. Sometimes at work, somebody stuck on a call with somebody that they're coaching or with a client, I really like consideration and I like acknowledgement and punctuality. So it is kind of the magic three. If we all had three things, they dive in together. And are these Julie styles of people like the seven forms of respect, are they styles or are they not styles?

Julie (24:45):

I'm so glad you asked that question, Wendy, because it's one of the big misconceptions. And sometimes when I work with teams, they're like, oh, so now do we go around and have signs on our doors that say, these are my respect, forms of respect? I'm like, no, because actually it's not like Enneagram. It's not like disc. Actually, some forms of respect is it's dynamic. And so there are going to be times where punctuality is really important to me, and yet it kind of depends on who. And that is because we look at the forms of respect through three dimensions, hierarchy is the first one who has more power, equal power, less power is going to influence how you think about respect that give versus get what I talked about, how I want to give respect versus how I want to get respect. And then what matters to you, what truly matters to you, not just what you think should matter to you. And so it's not about styles, it's actually I think of it as it's relative, it's contradictory, it's subjective.

Wendy (25:41):

So we've gone through the forms of respect. So let's boil it down now in terms of the workplace. How can really understanding these seven forms of respect help individuals and managers at work? What have you seen in your research and all of your work on this that you've seen as such a benefit for this?

Julie (26:02):

It helps people articulate what are the actual priorities, what actually matters versus what is nice to have. And so I see in the workplace, leaders will write up these very lofty vision statements of how we behave and respect is usually one of them. We are a respectful culture, and yet we don't actually talk about what does that mean? What does that look like, and how are we going to compromise? Because sometimes in the workplace, what I see is people, they confuse. I said, what I want and I didn't get it, so I'm not heard. And what people aren't realizing is there are a lot of people who want different things and they're all saying what they want. And so part of this is actually to help people compromise. And by depersonalizing, well, okay, I know that this is what a bunch of people want. And again, it's not a vote.

(26:55):

It's actually what supports our shared work because that's why we're here together. So for example, in an emergency room, punctuality is not going to be important. You're not going to care for the patient who got there on time or who got there first. You're going to care for the patient who was in the most critical need of care. And so I think it really does force companies to articulate their culture and to be kind of unapologetic about what they prioritize and what they don't prioritize. I used to work at a tech company where I can now say, if I had this framework back then I would say they prioritize acknowledgement, information and candor, and they deprioritize punctuality and attention. And also to understand that, to understand that when people talk about bringing their authentic selves to work, the thing is we have many authentic selves.

(27:44):

And so Wendy, one of the things when people talked about respect, and I'd ask them, Hey, what does it mean to you? They brought up a golden rule. So many people say, treat people the way that you want to be treated. Well, what if you don't want to be treated? What if they don't want to be treated the way that you want to be treated? And then there's the platinum rule, treat people the way that they want to be treated. Well, what if they don't know or they don't tell you? And so I have actually what I call the rubber band rule. And so this is something to think about and work in life. And the rubber band rule reflects actually how we are flexible, how we stretch, how we actually accommodate to other people's needs. It's like, okay, I know Wendy now really, I mean, I care about punctuality, but Wendy cares about punctuality.

(28:29):

I'll make sure that I'm on time. And yet there are some forms of respect that consideration asks really not one of mine. And yet, I know Wendy, if we were working together, I was like, well, I can stretch. I can stretch to accommodate Wendy. But over time, if I do it over and over and I actually get tired of stretching, what happens? It's like a rubber band. We snap and we break. So what a lot of people aren't aware of is what are our internal breaking points? Because oftentimes like, no, it's not a big deal. I'm cool. I don't mind that you're late. But over time it's like, I'm really pissed off, but I can't say it. And then what happens? People just leave and they say that culture was bad. But what they didn't ever do was ask, what do I want? And how do I say it? How do I express it? And maybe I'm not going to get what I want, but at least we can have a conversation. And so it's helped teams actually have a shortcut to say, Hey, interpersonally, hey, this is actually what's important to me. These are my forms of respect. And then we can also say, what are the forms of respect that are needed right now in this stage of the work? Maybe we're an ideation which is different from implementation.

Wendy (29:38):

I love that example because I think that a lot, and if we step over something or let the rubber band stretch for too long, then it's really hard to bring that up and say, for the last two months you've been doing this and it's really uncomfortable for me. It speaks to the candor in the beginning to say, let's set some ground rules up here. How are we going to do this? So we're both happy.

Julie (30:04):

And actually it's also just asking questions like, Hey, I'm noticing this. Can you tell me more? Or even I see this, do you see this? A perception check? Right? And so I'm a big fan of we don't just have to give this, this is the way I feel. It could actually be to ask a question of like, I'm seeing this. Are we seeing the same thing? And to ask questions. That's where the curiosity part comes in because it is a conversation. It is about sparking conversations and then to share why this matters to me. Because people remember stories. They're not just going to remember I said, it's not about respect styles. It's not about Julie likes this, this, and this. It's just when I was growing up, my mom was always picking me up from school, and I just felt a lot of shame because the school staff had to wait. And I understand she was really busy. I get that. But I said, when I grew up, punctuality was going to be a priority to me. And if you think someone else could have the exact same experience and have a different reaction, well, Wendy, when I share that story with you, you're going to remember that more than just what are Julie’s preferred forms of respect. Again, you'll remember the story, and that's what it is. It's about sparking stories as to how we came to care about the things we care about,

Wendy (31:17):

Why it is important to us. And when we understand that why, and then we'll be able to use that form of respect with that person so much easier because it will resonate well. We have less than five minutes left. So you talked about curiosity, and we certainly love that in coaching, asking those big open-ended questions to get people think. But what do you think managers can do in a time that we're really trying to create more inclusive environments? What are some of the things that managers can do as we talk about this topic of respect to make their environments more inclusive?

Julie (31:54):

I think that practicing curiosity is an asking questions is actually an indicator of psychological safety. It is that it is actually at the core of belonging and inclusion, and leaders have to model it. They have to ask questions and not, why did you do that? That way it's like, huh, why should we do it this way to show that they don't have all the answers, actually, because oftentimes we don't ask questions because we feel we should know the answer. We think that maybe people will think we weren't listening because we should have known it, or maybe we don't want people to look down on us or whatever. And so I think that asking questions, models, curiosity, and that it has to actually, leaders have to do that because if they do it, then it shows it. People do what you do, not what you say. And so often leaders say embrace failure, but they don't talk about their failures.

Wendy (32:54):

Ask questions, had a story about that, a story about their failure. It would resonate so much to say, it's safe that I can say this because look at the CEO said they had a failure.

Julie (33:06):

And also curiosity is a practice. It's not a trait. I think of it as a practice like meditation. There are going to be days where it is easier for me to practice curiosity than others. And there are days where I'm feeling resentful and angry and confused, and I'm not very curious. And to kind of understand that we're all striving and with meditation, it looks easy, and yet it's really hard to be still. So to kind of just remember that it's an ongoing practice, even there are times where it's much easier for me to communicate my needs than other times.

Wendy (33:40):

And I think sometimes it's good to start the conversation with, I'm curious when you have a hard time of how to get into something, just start there. I'm curious, wow, you thought about this in a very different way. And you can say that with being very open-ended so that people feel like they really are curious about what I learned and now I can share very honestly and authentically.

Julie (34:08):

Yes.

Wendy (34:09):

Yeah. Well, this was great, Julie. There's so many good points for people to remember and so many good stories intertwined in here. And if people want to learn more about you and have access to the book, what's the best way for them to reach out to you? Julie,

Julie (34:25):

You can go to forms of respect.com or you can go to curiosity base.com. And I'm a big fan of different ways of learning. So we also have the content on digital courses. I know some people don't like to read, and also shorter pieces as well. So yes, you can email me at julie@curiositybased.com too if you want to reach me directly or find me on LinkedIn.

Wendy (34:48):

And as a great storyteller on your site, you have some wonderful little videos, scenarios that speak to each of these, which I thought were so well done. It makes the point so clear and so visual that people say, ah, yeah, now I'll remember that. So I encourage people to go on and look at some of those because they're very well done.

Julie (35:07):

Thank you so much, Wendy. That means a lot coming from you.

Wendy (35:09):

Well, thank you for being with me today. Thank you, listeners. And think about this because respect is such an important piece, and now it's not just one word. You now have seven different forms that you can think about and you can think about what you need yourself and what other people need. And I love the points that Julie brought up about the team, and it's for the sake of why it's for the sake of the work, what is going to serve us the best. And I know that these will filter out from work life to your personal life, and I'm sure your next book that focuses on personal life will be wonderful too because people need that. We need respect at home now too and in all of our relationships. So thank you, Julie. Thank you everybody for listening.

Thank you for joining us today. For more information, show notes and any downloads from today's podcast, please visit https://www.newlevelwork.com/. We would also be so appreciative if you'd write a review, go on to https://www.newlevelwork.com/review and you can write a review on your favorite podcast app. It makes a big difference because we want to really grow managers and leaders around the world, and we need your help. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful day.

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