Julie Winkle Giulioni: Elevate Your Career Development Skills | Ep #108

Wendy: Welcome, to building better managers. I am your host, Wendy Hanson, and I am delighted to have you with me today to learn from some wonderful guests who are going to share their information and their brilliance and their experiences around management and leadership and building great teams in organizations. I am also the co-founder of New Level Work, so check us out. Newlevelwork.com. thanks for tuning in.

Hello, everybody. Welcome. I am so delighted that you took time to be with us today because I have a guest who I consider a friend after all these years because Julie's been on this podcast so many times. She's been a guest twice before and there was no hesitation when she came out with her new book and she said, boy, this is, we've got some new stuff in here. So I said, please, Julie, join me again because every time we're with you, we learn something. And our career development programs at new level work, really, we've used Julie's books for our inspiration and so that's just such a wonderful thing. And I appreciate what she does for everybody that's in this field. And when you specialize like Julie does into this area, it makes a difference. And her new book is help them grow or watch them go. Career conversations organizations need and employees still want. So we're going to find out about that today. And it really is. I always use the metaphor about it's not a ladder anymore in business, it's a climbing wall. And when all of us as coaches at new level work or trainers, we always talk about that because Julie has taught us that when we're in a work situation, we need to learn different things and move around. And it's not just going up the ladder anymore. That's very old school now. and today we're going to talk about AI too, and human interaction because you can't talk about anything these days without including some AI. And we have some great programs at new level work with AI that are combining that and some human coaching and AI to really make things available to so many people. so I love how Julie puts in practical applications for having conversations that count. And in her new book, she says careers are developed one conversation at a time over time. And I thought, oh yeah, this is not a, one and done. It's really important. So let me tell you more about Julie so we can get this party started. So Julie Winkle Giulioni is a champion for workplace growth and development and helps executives and leaders optimize talent and potential within their organizations. One of Inc. Magazine's top 100 speakers what an honor. She's author of promotions are so yesterday. Redefine career Development, help employees thrive, and co-author of the international bestseller help them grow or watch them go. Career conversations organizations need and still want, and that is already translated in seven languages, which is pretty impressive. Julie's a regular columnist for Training Industry Magazine and SmartBrief, and contributes articles on leadership, career development, workplace trends to numerous publications, including Fast Company and The Economist. You can keep up with Julie through her blog and LinkedIn, and she'll tell us more how to find her later on after we talk. So welcome, Julie. I'm so happy to have you here.

Julie: Thank you so much, Wendy. I've been looking forward to this conversation.

Wendy: Oh, yes, I always learn so much when I hang out with you. It's a wonderful thing. And, I really appreciated getting the book and I really recommend it to everybody. It needs to be on your bookshelf. So can you share the inspiration behind help them grow or watch them go? And what motivated you to write the book initially and now what motivated you to update it?

Julie: Yeah. Yeah. So, gosh, 12 13 years ago, when we had the opportunity to write this book, my co-author, Bev Kaye, and I looked around and it was so clear that there was a compelling business case to engage in career development. We know career development drives engagement. It drives retention. I mean, it really, there's a reason to do it from a business perspective. There's a reason to do it from a human perspective. People crave that kind of attention and, investment in them. And yet, despite all of that goodness, it doesn't happen in most organizations to the level where employees are satisfied. And so 13 years ago, we looked at the landscape and said, we got to crack the code here and figure out what's going on. So we did some research to figure out, what were the challenges and the impediments to that. And then how could we lay out an approach to career development that would have operate at the speed of business and meet the needs of, busy managers, busy employees alike? And so that was the impetus m 13 years ago when we started writing, and then twelve years ago when the first edition was published. And since that time, we've literally gone around the world working with organizations and leaders to help them understand that career development is a lot simpler than where a lot of us are making it. and yet we're still struggling. And that's why when our publisher, came to us and said, hey, it's time to update the book, first of all, we decided, let's add the word still in the title. Employees still want this, they're still not getting it. but it gave us an opportunity to really step back and recognize that while some of this content is evergreen, I mean, human connection and conversation, I mean, that's not going to change a lot. What has changed over the last five years since the latest edition is the context. You know, a few things have happened over these past five years that have changed the workplace and our relationship with work. And so that's really the lens through which we wanted to look at development today. What do managers and leaders need today given distributed, ambiguous, complex, workplace that we live in today?

Wendy: Yeah. and I love how you described in all your books about, it's about one conversation at a time, and it's not one conversation a year. Year. Which is what was happening in the past. Right. You'd have your annual career conversation if that.

Julie: You know, for some people, employees were reporting never getting to talk about their careers. But you're right. I mean, we've all had those well intentioned managers who had that annual conversation with us get all excited. You get your plan together, and, you know, off it goes until next year this time.

Wendy: Right.

Julie: And that's almost worse, maybe, than having a conversation at all. I mean, it's really demoralizing.

Wendy: Oh, it is. Because we know how much things change in a year. We know these days how much they change in a month. Right. I remember doing strategic planning and things with companies where we would say in five years, you know, where do you see this? You can't do that anymore because life is changing. Technology is changing way too much. So we've got to close the gap on those things. Yes, exactly. And what is so different in the new book than in the previous books? Because certainly there's a lot there that you had to pull out to be able to update this new book.

Julie: Yeah, we actually did a whole chapter swap, which, gets a little dicey sometimes. but I think, the chapter, I'll start there, we have a brand new chapter called developing at a distance. And what it acknowledges is that developing people who are co located, that's challenging in and of itself, scatter people to the winds. And you have just upped the ante tremendously. And a lot of managers and leaders are really struggling to figure out how do I help those people who are remote or hybrid to get the same kind of opportunities, the same kind of visibility as those, you know, who I see day in and day out? How do I interrupt my proximity by it level the playing field, and make sure that everybody has an opportunity for growth no matter where they work. So that's pretty significant. addition and change to this new edition. We also, as you mentioned at, the lead in, we're looking at in the world of AI and technology, where it seems like these are tools that can do so much for us, which they are. They're not a replacement for what we refer to as hi human interaction, no matter how great the bot is. And we've built a book bot to go along with this book. So it's not like we're Luddites or anything. We're not, pushing technology to the side. But no matter how great the bot or the tool is, it doesn't communicate respect and value and investment. People don't leave feeling something as a result of that. And so marrying the technology with the human piece of it is really key. We talk about that. We talk about talent hoarding. A lot of managers and supervisors tend to gravitate toward a scarcity mentality when it comes to development. It's like, these are my people, and if I develop them, I should keep them. There's this, sort of energy. Talent is really. It needs to be viewed as an enterprise wide resource, and if we're not willing to share it and move it around a little bit, that's more dangerous, you know, in terms of being able to retain people.

Wendy: Yeah, because some people need to switch things up once in a while, and if you don't share their talents in an organization, they're going to go to another organization.

Julie: Exactly. And even the going to another organization, Wendy. I mean, as you know, there's value in having fresh blood and fresh perspectives. Certain turnover. That's healthy for an organization. And if leaders become effective at developing folks, they don't have to fear that kind of turnover because they've got the skills to be able to bring the next folks up. the learning curve.

Wendy: Yeah. And I do think that I'm seeing, in some cases, that people are staying longer in organizations, and I think it's the economic environment out there because we used to always say, especially Silicon Valley, well, you hit two years, you're going to leave because you go for your next opportunity. But now it's a little different. Are you seeing that?

Julie: Yeah. Yeah. And I was just reading some research, and, the expression the great stay was attached to it, and it was exactly that. There's a sense of, you know, insecurity, uncertainty, maybe not wanting to tread out, especially as the labor market, changes and yet I don't think leaders can become complacent. as the labor market changes, there's a tendency to think, okay, well, we're holding all the cards now, but great talent always has options, and if we're not developing them, they're going to go down the highway.

Wendy: Yeah. And what are some of those common mistakes that you see managers make when it comes to career development? And how can they avoid that? Because sometimes we don't know what we don't know. And I think you know enough about this to be able to say, watch out for these things.

Julie: Yeah, yeah. We do have blind spots. I mean, we all do. And leaders are grappling with and juggling so much. I think the one mistake that I see over and over again is leaders working off of mistaken, assumptions. You know, I think as leaders, there's an ex, we feel like we need to have the answers and know the way forward. I mean, that's kind of the value proposition associated with being leaders, in some of our minds. And as a result, we bring that kind of directive orientation to career conversations when we really don't know what's going on with the other person. We don't, in many cases, understand what's motivating them, what else is going on in their lives, how their interests are shifting, what their aspirations might be. And so when we go in with those assumptions, we're kind of shutting down rather than opening up the conversation. and it's an easy mistake to fall into just because you're in that problem solving mode all day long. Just apply that to the career conversations, and nothing could be further than the truth, because, as you well know, career conversations are all about the questions, all about the curiosity, all about, putting something out there and then letting the employee go and taking it all in with curiosity and great listening.

Wendy: Yeah. And I would assert, too, that leaders that really, have to be experts in asking questions no matter what, not only about career development, but they're not there to give the answers. And that's, we coach around that all the time because it's much easier, to just give my people the answer on how to do something than it is to ask them the questions. What's the next step that you think we should take in this case? What's this? You know, where coaches are famous for what questions? You know, because what questions get you to think, why questions somehow sound like, m why did you do that? Even if you say it very benignly, if you say, why people, whoops, I must have done something wrong. And how gets you into logistics, your left brain, and how we're going to do this. So leaders to know what questions, especially in the realm of career development, I think is, you know, we have to stop and we have to stop assuming, I love that you bring that up. Assuming that we know what somebody wants, because we don't. Yeah. Especially in this day and age.

Julie: I was just going to say that people are looking for a different kind of relationship with their work today. And I think a lot of us are feeling it out and trying to discover it ourselves and having a partner in that, a leader who asks those great why or what questions and helps us to pause and reflect and kind of put those pieces together. Man, that is such a gift.

Wendy: Yeah. Ah, totally. And what can you talk about psychological safety? Because this is something that comes up a lot, and I don't always think of it in terms of career development conversations, so please share your perspective on that.

Julie: You know, when you think about a career conversation, it is the most intimate way leaders interact with employees. I mean, like, where else in the workplace are you talking about goals and dreams and aspirations and fears? I mean, that is deep stuff. And leaders don't just walk in and get to do that. They've got to earn the right to be able to have that kind of a conversation. And what earns them the right is that sense of psychological safety. When people feel safe, when they censor benign, you know, benevolence, when they know you've got their back, when they know it's safe to make mistakes, at that point, they're going to start opening up. And then once we start moving forward, I love the logistics, the way you talked about that, the mechanics of development, you know, putting plans in place and taking action on the growth that we want to enjoy. That's risky business. You know, when I'm trying a new skill, I might not get it right the first time. I might blow it. I might look like a fool. I might mess up in front of a client. And knowing that I've got that safety net of psychological security and safety there makes all the difference in the world in terms of feeling comfortable, venturing out, and engaging in that messy business of learning and development.

Wendy: Yeah. And leaders and managers need to know how important that is to create that safe space. And I don't think they always know it. They don't. They think people are feeling in a safe space. and it's hard to kind of figure out, do they feel in a safe space? Because if you haven't gone deep with somebody. You don't know what deep is with them.

Julie: Yes, well, and it's interesting because we all know what our intentions are in our interactions with others, but we frequently have no idea what the impact is. And so checking that out and bringing those into sync, you know, it's a great additional benefit to leaders for, engaging in that kind of conversation because they're growing as well and being able to improve their performance.

Wendy: Right. Yeah, it's a two way street of goodness. Yes, absolutely. and what are some practical steps? Because that's one of the things I love about you, is you're always so practical. You know, there are some people that I talk to on here that are very theoretical. And it's like, I want people to leave here and know, I can do this, I can do something. And I think that's one of your gifts, because not everybody can do that. But what are some practical steps managers can take to integrate meaningful career conversations into regular conversations with employees? So it's not like today we're going to have a career. What does that look like?

Julie: You know, and, that is the secret sauce. What I'm seeing is I work with leaders, the ones who do this naturally, who do it effortlessly, who just have a reputation for being an exceptional developer. They're the ones who are able to sprinkle development throughout the day. It isn't an event for them, not even, you know, like a five minute event. It can be a three minute event. It is taking advantage of whatever is happening in the workplace and using that as an excuse to turn a conversation in the direction of development. I just wrote, an article on this, and I'm using the expression read the room. Leaders need to look around and read the room and see, oh, okay, somebody's struggling there. They're not having a good time with that particular task and say, what's going on with that? What additional skills would make that easier? Or someone over here is love in life and doing something just off the Richter scale. So easy to just say, you know, good job, keep up the good work. But to take that moment and say, which of your superpowers is it that's making this such a breeze for you? Just that kind of cue sensitivity, reading the room, asking a question, having a short two, three minute conversation. You layer those one on top of the other all year long. You've got real authentic, genuine sustainable development at that point versus the one and done meetings off in a corner.

Wendy: Yes. Oh, I love that. I love that because it really is if you're moving forward all the time, if you're calling out people's superpowers, like, that's something, we don't do enough of that and say, where else can you use your strengths in this organization?

Julie: Yes, absolutely. And talk about a win win validation, additional motivation on the part of the individual. But then you're radiating skills to other parts of the business. So I guess win, win. Win for the employee, win for the leader, win for the organization.

Wendy: Yeah. and we just need to know that appreciating people, and we talk a lot, and I. And some of the things that I say, I'm like, this might be from Julie's book. Yes. Well, I talk about recognition and appreciation. Recognition is for what you have done, and appreciation is who you are. And we need to do both of those. But we need to do appreciation even more because when somebody gets called out for who they are as a person, that makes all the difference in the world, because then that sticks to you. You know, that compliment. If I'm a salesperson and I get this sale, I'm only as good as my last sale. But if somebody says, when you come to a meeting, you brighten up a room, you know, we love, you know, the connection you bring in and the humor that sticks with somebody, and they get. And they get a shot of dopamine and they want to do more of it.

Julie: Yeah. Oh, and it kind of reminds me of Ted lasso. I think he introduced. I appreciate you. I mean, how frequently do we really appreciate, those around us? And it's powerful stuff, Wendy.

Wendy: Yes. Great. So how has the rise of remote and hybrid work really impacted career development? And, what strategies can leaders use to support these types of teams that are set up in these settings? Because that's really challenging. And you mentioned that a little bit earlier, you know, when people are spread out all over the place.

Julie: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's interesting. So five years ago, before the pandemic, there were people who worked remotely, but they were kind of the exception, not the rule. Now we've got a critical mass of folks who are in remote or hybrid working situations who are, in many cases, not getting the kind of development that they need for their own satisfaction, nor that the organization needs to be effective. we really wanted to look at what distinguishes effective remote hybrid development from the rest. We did about 25 interviews. My co-author and I did with practitioners, thought leaders, authors on the topic, because we really wanted to get 1012 great, actionable strategies. And what was fascinating was, in talking with these people, there weren't concrete things that they did, what their answer was. Ah, the theme that ran through all of their answers was, you got to do everything you would do with co located people, but you've got to do it with greater intentionality. So we need to be more, intentional about it. And so managers who are struggling to develop people who are co located, no wonder they're struggling. I mean, it's the challenges on steroids. So in that new chapter in the book, what we've done is to lay out some really intentional actions that a leader can take. Things like simple things like building in a development, check in ritual into your one on ones. You're probably going to have a routine one on one with your remote folks, and you dive right into the business and the numbers and the challenges and all that stuff. Just starting every meeting with five minutes about how are you growing, how's your development plan coming along? What challenges are you facing? Just that for five minutes sends such a powerful signal to employees about what matters to you. Starting a meeting, talking about development, that sends a message. And then all the performance and business stuff can follow. So small things like that. also things like actually orchestrating some of, what organically happens in the workplace, those casual kind of ways we cross paths and learn by osmosis. We've got to manufacture that in the remote setting. And even this notion we talk about narrating what's happening. So, you know, I mean, we've all been in meetings, and I think about it younger, you know, when I was younger, in my career, sitting in meetings and watching the more seasoned folks as they, you know, performed and did their thing and watching the dynamics and seeing where the, where there were weird looks between two people. And then you'd ask somebody afterward on the way out, okay, so why were they glaring at each other? And then you'd understand the mechanics or the politics or whatever. so there's all that, you know, invisible curriculum floating around when you're together that somebody who's remote doesn't see. And so leaders who have those kinds of remote and hybrid folks need to actually make note of those things and narrate it that you probably didn't see. But there was a little tension between finance and operations. and here's what's going on there, just so you know.

Wendy: Yeah. And you point out that people should do this in their, in the beginning of their one on one. Well, I just want to emphasize that people need to have one on ones because sometimes that doesn't even happen, you know, ah, the best practice is once a week can be a little too much, depending on your team, but at least once every two weeks, you know, and we've coached so many people, said, oh, yeah, I have one on ones about every three months we meet, which doesn't work, as we talked about earlier, because things change too rapidly. And if you have that one on one and you don't have, you know, one on ones in the past used to be downloads by the manager. Let me tell you this. Now, you know, and one on ones now, when we talk about it, it's always, it belongs to the employee. The one on one, they're the ones that should come with the agenda. But I love that the manager starts with, here's some things about your career. How are you doing? You know, how can I support you? Yeah.

Julie: And, you know, the whole notion of having these regular one on ones, putting the content of them aside, the simple act, of making time, sends a powerful signal. Employees know how busy managers are. I mean, they're not, they're not dopey. They look around and they see. And a manager who invests that time, that means the world to employees. The flip side of it is a manager who says, oh, you know, could we put off that one on one? I'm going to have to push it off another week. I mean, that also speaks volumes, doesn't it? but how we spend our time says a lot, and employees value that time that's invested.

Wendy: Yeah, yeah. And you're so right. I'm glad you pointed out when it gets canceled, it means I am canceled as an individual. Yeah. And that doesn't feel good. I am not important. I am not worth it. Something else is getting in the way. Yeah. so we have to make sure.

Julie: Yeah, it happens from time to time, but it's that serious. Pushing it down. Kicking the can down.

Wendy: Yeah, kicking the can down the road. Right. We don't want that. Yes. And how can organizations really ensure equitable development opportunities for employees? You know, because it's hard, given their location and their remote or their role. But how can they do that? What are some strategies that you've seen?

Julie: Well, it starts with, elevated self-awareness. Leaders need to really confront, their proximity bias. You know, it's only natural, it's human to gravitate toward those who are around. and as a result, the, you know, we've got this out of sight, out of mind sort of dynamic. That happens. So one of the tools that, we talk about in the book and that I always counseling leaders to use is a roster. It sounds so silly, but to keep a roster of your team members and just mark off every time you touch base with somebody, make a note of the opportunities that you might have given them or the feedback, and then on a weekly basis, look at your roster and see some people have lots of check marks, other people, no check marks at all. And it's just a very visceral way of recognizing, recognizing. Oh, this is uneven. This isn't fair. And I need to invest more time and then, you know, reallocate accordingly.

Wendy: Oh, I love that. Yeah. I think. I think checklist rosters are the way to go. Yes. Because you don't want, you don't realize over a two week period that, wow, I have not talked to Mary at all in two weeks. Yeah.

Julie: and look at how much more attention Joe over here is getting. And that's where you get the problem. And that's why we're seeing the. The data that suggests that people who are there, co located have more opportunities in terms of development opportunities, more in terms of promotions. There are pay differentials at play, and, you know, that's a dangerous game, to play.

Wendy: Yeah. and people need to be more connected with each other. And when they're remote, you know, as I have the honor of being chief of culture, for new level work. And one of the things that our wonderful culture committee created is, we call it mystery coffee, where people get together and they come in and then they do ten minutes of a one on one, and we break them up into groups and break them down, and you get to learn about people that you get work with. And so once you learn a little bit more about somebody and you know who they are, you're more likely to go to bat for them. You're more likely to ask more questions. And so I think organizations need to do those kinds of activities when they have so many remote people.

Julie: Yeah. And that can happen even if you can't get people together. You know, you can still send a coffee bean and tea leaf cardinal, to the two people and say, get on teams at this time.

Wendy: Exactly.

Julie: And, you know, as you're talking about that, it's really making me think that when we create more of that kind of connectivity among team members, among, employees, then at that point, we've got the basis for development to become a team sport where we can start relying upon one another rather than having development be this exclusive relationship between the employee and the manager.

Wendy: Well, that's such a good point. Yeah. Why don't you go talk to so and so who really has done a lot of work in this area, and how good does that make the person feel who is being, you know, the person that they're going to for some mentoring or support?

Julie: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Wendy: M and what role. And we talked a little bit about this human interaction play in an increasingly AI driven workplace, you know, particularly in career growth. What are you seeing as you. Because you got to put on your crystal ball hat and look into the future. What are you seeing?

Julie: Yeah. You know, AI is such a powerful tool, and as I mentioned, we created a book bot to accompany this new edition. It's a custom GPT where readers can go and they can say, you know, I'm going to have a career conversation with Wendy. Here's what we've talked about before, what she's interested in, what I'm concerned about. And you've got a partner in helping you plan out that conversation and coming up with all the great questions. You can practice and get feedback on your performance. Having the conversation, have a brainstorming partner to come up with development, opportunities and experiences. It's such richness that we can tap into with technology. Absolutely. We want to make that technology work to the greatest extent possible, but it's a tool. It's not a replacement for or an alternative to a leader. And I think especially for leaders who are feeling busy or feeling not skillful or uncomfortable in this arena, there might be a tendency to say, okay, well, go. Let's let the technology take care of it. Thank you very much. But no matter how great the bot is, no matter how great the questions, the feedback, all of that, that bot can't make someone feel respected and valued and invested in. It can't make you feel. And employees are looking for a feeling, a positive feeling associated with their work. And so human interaction, you know, I think, the more technology, comes to play and the more intelligently we're able to use it, the more important it is for leaders to really lead with those human skills, because that's what differentiates and distinguishes us.

Wendy: Yeah. And to be able to augment it with AI is a beautiful thing.

Julie: Yes.

Wendy: but it's the augmentation and not throwing that in and saying, oh, they're going to take care of this. And I love, by the way, the bot that you have, I think that's just brilliant. That's brilliant.

Julie: We're really excited about it because we've all read books and had really good intentions. Intentions and then, life intrudes and we don't get around to acting on it. So I hope that it kind of bridges that knowing doing gap.

Wendy: Yeah. And final question, how do you see the future of career development? How do you see it evolving? Because you're reading the research all the time. That's what I love, that you're staying on top of all this so that you can be the wise one to share with us. What do you think the future is going to look like?

Julie: Julie, let me get the crystal ball here, please, please.

Wendy: Yes.

Julie: And of course, you know, anything I say is subject to change because as you can see, things are changing so fast. I mean, the one thing that we need to be ready for in all of our careers is just for more change. but a couple of things that I think, are important to be looking at. one is I think we're going to see less focus on pathways, more focus on, development experiences and portfolios. And, you know, it's only natural with jobs changing, with technology being found to be able to do different dimensions of different tasks. there are jobs every day that are going away, and on the other side there are new jobs coming on. And so pathways may not be flexible and nimble enough to be able to address all of this dynamic opportunity that exists. And so increasingly the thought of what are the skills I want to learn, what are the experiences I want to curate, what's the portfolio that I want to put together that's going to make me ensure that I'm, future proofing my career? That becomes really key and I think that becomes increasingly key too. I was just reading something Mastercard published, some research that by 2030, 40% to 50% of us will be gig workers will be part of the gig economy. Yeah, it's a little hard to fathom, and maybe those numbers are higher, but a large portion of us are going to be out on our own without the support of an organization and those pathways, we're going to have to figure it out ourselves. So this is the perfect time for everybody to be developing the skills and the abilities to own your career and be able to navigate that going forward. So I think that's one of the most significant, shifts. And then, as you well know, there's so much on demand content, mentoring, coaching. So increasingly seeing a, marketplace, a development marketplace where we as individuals can go and, and, you know, a la carte pick and pull the pieces that we need to complement and supplement our skills and our development strategies at any time. I think we're going to see a really organic and self-driven way of being able to grow, which I think is just so darn exciting.

Wendy: Yes. And put people in the driver's seat of their own car. Yes. That's great. That's great. Well, Julie, this has been wonderful, as I knew it would be. And, what's the best way for people to learn more? Reach out to you all that?

Julie: Yeah, probably the best place to find me is juliewinklejulioni.com, which I'm sure will be in show. It's a bit of a mouthful, but we've got lots of information there about both books and a variety of different resources to help leaders and employees alike, who really want to embrace a new approach to career development and find ways to thrive.

Wendy: Great. Well, we will put that in the show notes and people will also confine you on LinkedIn if they look on there. So, yeah, you'll be out there and go to Amazon and get this book, everybody. You really need it. If you're a manager, you need this book. Yes. We want people to thrive as they move ahead in their careers and get ready for the gig economy. And a lot of people are already doing that. You know, they, they're working full time. We know so many people, and then they have a side gig because they're preparing. One never knows. So true.

Julie: And hopefully the next time we talk, we'll, have a new edition of the book out and we'll take still out of the title. In fact, you know, we'll. It's career conversations employees are already enjoying every single day. That's what we learned.

Wendy: Great, great. Well, I can't wait till the fourth book. Yes. And, it's just wonderful for you to share your knowledge with us all. Thank you. And, we certainly at new level work, we use your book as a resource with all our career development and for our coaches and things. It really is important because in our organization, it's really to help people grow and learn and to help managers. That's what we're here for. That's why we started this company, because it's lonely, especially being a middle manager. You know, we serve all levels of people now, but we started the company because middle managers didn't get the love that they needed. And, everybody needs to know how to do this, and everybody needs to have, not only we teach, like, classes in essential conversations, you know, how to have a coaching conversation, how to give feedback, and then one of those is how to have a career conversation. You know, where we, we use the basis of your work for that, because if managers don't know how to do that, and we see if you haven't had a good mentor, then you don't know how to do that. You may have been in a, command and control situation with your last manager, and you're not going to be able to do the wonderful things that you've talked about today. So, yes, please, everybody, go on and look@newlevelwork.com. and see what we're up to these days and look in the show notes and. And see what Julie's up to, because she's always up to cool things. And, we're so happy that you joined us today. Thank you so much. And go out and make an impact with your people, like, help your people be all they can be because you want them to be. Go home to the dinner table and say, you know, what a great team I work with, what great people I get to learn from and skills I get to develop. That's what we want the dinner conversation to be. Not like, oh, my God, these people are crazy. I don't like work here. What do you want? So listen to Julie, read that advice, and, anything we can do for you at new level work, let us know. So thank you all so much. Thank you, Julie. Always a pleasure. And, we'll see you. Hopefully I'll see you before the fourth book. Yes. All right. Take care.

Thank you for joining us today. For more information shown up and any downloads from today's podcast, please visit newlevelwork.com. we would also be so appreciative if you'd write a review. Go on to newlevelwork.com review, and you can write a review on your favorite podcast app. It makes a big difference because we want to really grow managers and leaders around the world, and we need your help. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful day. Day.