Unlock the Power of Personal Connections in Leadership with Chris Wells | Ep #111

Wendy: Welcome, to Building Better Managers. I am your host, Wendy Hanson, and I am delighted to have you with me today to learn from some wonderful guests who are going to share their information and their brilliance and their experiences around management and leadership and building great teams in organizations. I am, also the co-founder of New Level Work. So check us out newlevelwork.com thanks for tuning in.

Greetings everyone. I'm so glad you've joined us today. There's so much happening in the world right now and it's so nice to be able to talk with people who really enjoy people. And I get to talk to Chris Wells today who is the  VP of Sales in EMEA for New Level Work. He's our sales leader all over Europe and beyond. He's done a great job with us. And we're not going to talk about sales as much as we're going to talk about relationships because Chris really knows that that's what's important, building a relationship with someone. and he really has a special perspective on the personalities of LD leaders and HR and salespeople and all the similarities between them and what's the best way for us to support each other in this world so that we can support the people that we have in our organizations. But it really starts with people. So I think you're going to enjoy this really kind of up, close and personal discussion that Chris and I have today and I hope you take as much away from it as I did. So just listen in and think about what kind of impact you can have, whether you're in HR, L&D sales or you are a rising star. And you're going to use this in your future as you learn. So thank you so much for tuning in, Chris. I am so excited that we get to chat today. Being colleagues and working together. I love to know more about the sales space and L and D. So what a great opportunity. So thank you for making time for this.

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Chris: It's an absolute delight and a pleasure. Wendy. Yeah. Ah, really excited to talk to you today.

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Wendy: Thank you. Yes. And I'm very curious, what initially drew you to HR and learning and the learning sector and sales, those three together. And what's kept you there and engaged in the field for so long? Nearly three decades.

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Chris: Thank you for that. Yep. Nearly three decades.

Wendy: that was the easiest way to say it, Chris.

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Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. You're old. it's fine. So it's a good question. So I think, as with many sales folk, I fell into it. I mean, I left university and needed to get a job, to pay off all those debts. So I fell into sales and it just happened to be for a very early stage learning tech company. and what's kept me in it. Now there's a story here that I'd like to tell you because it was a real seminal moment for me and it's the thing that's kept me in sales and it's the thing that I think has helped me be successful and has brought me a lot of joy. So we'll zoom back through part of those three decades, to when I was a 27, 28 year old, fairly newbie salesperson. And you know, salespeople are taught to focus on the business challenges. Right? You know, you've as, you know, the HR and learning folks listening to this, you're probably experienced from listening to salespeople ask you, so tell me, what are your big business challenges? And that's valid up to a point and that's kind of how I was trained. But there was this really big deal going down with, and I won't mention the names as they were, but a, big international multinational organization. And this was going to be a huge deal. I mean there was two and a half million dollars on the table for the initial contract and the potential of many more millions after that. so there was huge competition, there was a big fight going on for this, for this business. And this was back in the days when you could take people out for lunch and who knows, maybe you still can. And the learning leader there, let's call him Andrew, I took him out for lunch and we talked about business, but we also got into some personal stuff as well. And Andrew was telling me that, you know, Chris, he was later in his career and he told me that he really wanted to make this project successful because his plan was to stick around for about a year or two afterwards. And then he wanted to go off and do his own consulting gig, have his own consulting firm. And the reason behind that was that he had a son at home and who had some pretty severe disabilities, which meant that his life was going to be short and he wanted to give himself the flexibility to spend more time with his family. And it hit me like a ton of bricks that wait a minute, we're all trying to sell Andrew this big learning platform. we're trying to sell Andrew on engaged employees and higher performance. But actually what I would much rather be selling Andrew is the ticket out of there. I'd much rather be selling and helping Andrew to achieve his goal to be with his family. That resonated with me far more than selling a piece of learning technology that was going to help this big business grow even more. and it was a game changer for me.

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Wendy: Yeah. Wow, what a story. And it really hits you, the support of people, the business will do okay, but that personal connection, that must have meant the world to him.

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Chris: Exactly. Yeah. And it shifted things. I mean, we won the business because, you know, we were no longer selling a piece of learning technology. We were, we were selling and there were different ways in which we achieved this, but we were selling his ticket to spend time with his family. so, yeah, it's all about understanding the people, challenges, the people that you're maybe selling to. the people in your business.

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Wendy: Yeah, I love that because it's not just about, let's just go quick and get the business. It's like, know the whole picture. It's like, we do in coaching too. Coaching isn't just about talking about the business. Our whole life comes into it. And you need to be aware of that when people have, have certain things that they're doing or family issues, so. Oh, that's a great story, Chris.

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Chris: Yeah. And it's, you know, as I've been working with you over the last four years, and I mean, you, you know how much I really love working at new level work and what we do, the work that we do and the change that we see. you know, I think that's really been a wonderful experience at this point in my career, to be, to be part of leadership development in particular, because, you know, whether you're a parent, a principal or a president, you know, leadership, really has a dramatic effect. the ripple effect is huge. so by reaching and developing the folks that we do, you really feel like you're having a big impact.

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Wendy: Yeah. and they're in a circle and it's like a pebble dropped in the water and the ripples go out and other people get affected because they're doing better. That's beautiful. Yeah. And I've heard you say over the years that HR and learning leaders and salespeople are surprising. They have similar personality types. I am very curious about this one. They're cut from the same cloth you've said. And when it comes to the skills they bring to the table, it's. They're similar. Can you share something and where the overlap is? Because that wouldn't have occurred to me.

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Chris: Yep. Oh, it's remarkable. But it's Very, very true. that's another reason why I've stayed in this industry for so long. I mean, you end up meeting with people who are actually quite similar. And I think a lot of HR folks will understand this and learning folks will understand this when I explain what I mean by this. And I think a lot of the HR people that I've worked with over the years have been fantastic salespeople, and they might not know it, but they've got those traits within them. I was reflecting on this, just the other day and think about this for a moment. HR and learning, they're one of the few departments, ah, in an organization that refers to their colleagues as customers, our internal customer, you know, you might get some others, but it's especially true of hr. And you think about, well, just because they work in the company, they're not automatically your customer.

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Wendy: Right.

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Chris: You might want to serve them as such. But to get a customer, to keep a customer, you got to do one thing and that's engage them. And I think this is something that HR and learning professionals and leaders know very, very well. You know, engagement, engagement, engagement. So I've seen many HR and learning professionals move over onto this side of the fence, to become salespeople or in some kind of client facing role. I've seen it numerous times. It's really interesting.

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Wendy: Yeah, and they have walked in those shoes before of what it's like to be on that side and they're so knowledgeable and it's part of what you say about really connecting with somebody. You know, they've seen what that's like.

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Chris: So this is, this is true. I mean you look at the character traits or the skill set, of a salesperson and an HR or a learning leader, I mean ultimately we're all people people, you know, I mean we. Okay, so I fell into this, but I stayed into it because I love working with people. I'm a people, people person. And I think HR folks, when you talk to them, you know, why did you get into this? What, what kind of lights, your light, what are you passionate about? It's, it's about the people, about helping them reach their full potential and those, those bright moments. And yes, I have to deal with all of this other boring stuff, but that's the thing that really gets me. So we're all people people. So HR folks and sales folks are great at relationship building. Overall, they're great relationship builders. It's about that human connection, communication, trust building. overall very empathetic and I think Salespeople, if they're going to be any good, need to be super empathetic, to build that rapport. influencing skills. I mean, the HR and learning leaders, you know, they all have to have fantastic influencing skills to get these projects that they're trying to launch over the line, to get people engaged in what they're doing. They're strategic thinkers, like salespeople, their results orientated as well. So it's like, what are the outcomes? What are the results that we're trying to get? So there's. There's huge similarities. And I think probably the most is resilience. So, you know, salespeople especially have to be resilient. And I think, you know, it's the same for a lot of, our HR and learning listeners. You know that they definitely know that one. They need to be resilient.

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Wendy: Resilient, yeah. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Clearly you're, familiar with Clifton strengths. yeah, I'm hearing those coming out. And, whenever we work with teams that are salespeople, all their strengths almost sometimes come under influence. Yeah, yeah. Influencing and relationships. Yeah. Well, that's great. That's great. Now, what are some of the common blind spots you see HR and learning leaders have about implementing leadership development programs? What gets in their way?

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Chris: Okay, so there's two biggies that I see again and again. the first one is, and I know this is not always. Well, no, it's always possible, this one, involving the leaders of the leaders. Involving the leaders of the managers, very deeply in what you're doing with the participants, let's call them, the learners themselves. So, as much as we all know, we need to track ROI and we need to, assess the results and measure, measure, measure. And you can measure skill development up to a point. What I've seen is that the most successful leadership development projects, and by successful, I would qualify that by saying we do it again. So we don't just come and do some training or some coaching and then we stop. that's not been successful. Probably if we manage to go back and get more funding, then it was successful. And the hallmark of so many of these is the stories, the stories of transformation. And it tends to be the stories from the leaders of the leaders that went through some of the training or development, their perspectives on how Wendy or Chris has really changed on the ground and the results that we've seen that are almost impossible to measure, in any quantifiable way. yeah, I'd Say that's the biggest, and there's another one which is a big blind spot. What's next? What happens next? You know, we, we do some coaching, we do some training, we send some people on a course. Then what? You know, and I think we, we still see a lot of kind of this sheep dip, call it sheep dipping, you know, that will, train these folks and then they're kind of left. so it's really thinking about how do we set leaders up in the mindset of continuous development and give them the tools to be able to do that, in a way that's scalable and cost effective.

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Wendy: Yeah, yeah. And when you get into one of those relationships with a learning leader, even to think about that in the beginning for learning leaders to say, how do we keep this all going? And can tell that you're in Europe? we don't usually use sheep dipping here.

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Chris: No. Okay.

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Wendy: I think that's a wonderful way to describe it. Yes. I don't know what it's called when they stay for the long term. Yes. But, I think that long term piece of people growing and learning. We actually have some people that are being coached by new level work. One person has come back for eight different rounds of coaching because. And that's not a dependency, that's having a thought partner. So it's very interesting, you know, when things stick and you know, because we share all the feedback that we get from everyone. It is amazing when you say, this has changed my life, you know, I am a better person at home because now I know how to listen, which I didn't know before. So it helps them at work, helps them at home. So, yeah, that is something that people need to think about in advance. That's great.

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Chris: Yeah. This is the thing that we see it again and again people say, this helped me professionally, personally, and I shared with you m a few days ago, Leora, our new AI, incredibly mature and wonderful AI coach. I, was talking to somebody and they told me that, well, did you know that Leora means light or my light even, in some other languages, which I think wasn't intentional, but it's right on point.

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Wendy: Right. But it was meant to be. You know, it came out that way. That's wonderful. We've had some great feedback on that. Now, looking back over your. Oh, we'll make it a little less 28 years. We won't call you decades this time in sales, especially selling to HR and learning leaders, what are the key changes that You've noticed in how organizations approach leadership development for their folks.

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Chris: Well, I do, I do see that people are more switched on to the long term. So, you know, how do we. I know I said that that was one of the blind spots, but I think that people are more turned on and they are looking at ways to, to keep the momentum going. and not to talk about our own solutions too much, but I think this is why we're seeing such interest in AI in particular, because it really gives a very cost effective, and literally effective way to continue that momentum. I think that, you know, for, for decades, you know, at the dawn of E learning, if there was a dawn, of E learning, then, you know what, what was so attractive about that was this idea of personalization, that it's really personalized. I get to, to pick my path through something. But I think what we've learned and what a lot of learning leaders and HR leaders have learned is that it's not very personal really. and they're seeking for, that ultimate personalization that can actually only come through coaching, or indeed, you know, group led coaching, which can also be highly personalized. there are challenges with that as well because it's difficult if you're a big company to keep going on with more and more human LED coaching. And again, I think that's where AI is going to see a big uplift for us.

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Wendy: Yeah. And for many companies this is coming out so quickly. But our different AI products I just think are going to make a difference so that it really does feel more personal and have some humans involved in that too. Because as you've been saying, we really like humans and people do like humans. We want to keep them connected to all the things that we do.

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Chris: We want to stick around.

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Wendy: Yes, yes. Now, how have the conversations with clients evolved over the years? You know, what are HR and learning leaders asking for now that they weren't asking for a decade ago?

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Chris: Well, I think that the challenge. I'm going to talk a little bit about challenges here as well. because I think what people are asking for relates, to some of the challenges. and sadly, I think these challenges have got worse over time. So, the biggest challenge that an HR or learning leader faces when it comes to learning and development or leadership development is money, hands down. You know, so budgets are being cut. I spoke to somebody, the learning leader, the other day and she said, you know, the finance director was in touch with me, wanted to ask how much money I had left in my budget. and you know, there was some important initiative that they might need more cash for, and it turned out that they were trying to take her budget for the Christmas party. So I think, you know, if you think about a finance director and their, you know, how they think about that training budgets thing, you know, that, well, we can use that for the Christmas party. So it's, it's again, you know, this, this relates to the conversation what people are asking for more and more is how can I make this money go further? and also where can I get the biggest impact for the budget that I have? Which I think is why we've seen such an uplift in leadership development in particular, because I think that learning leaders are starting to see that with my limited budget, if I invest in the 10% of leaders in my organization and I equip them, to flow that knowledge down, then I get a bigger bang for my buck from doing that. and I think this relates to another thing that people are asking for. So they're asking for a shift in mindset with their leaders. So they're asking for a shift in mindset where it's not HR's responsibility to create engagement within the organization. It's not HR's responsibility to build culture or build the culture that we want. It's the leaders in our business, whether they're new leaders or they're the senior executives. So it's about, you know, it's not just the classic leadership skills that we're, that we're wanting to develop. It's really about that shift in mindset, that these are our leaders responsibilities.

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Wendy: Yeah. Because we know how the leaders are. It's, it's like a mirror image that goes down to what the company does, how the leaders handle things, how they hold culture and development and care of people, everybody else. That's where you learn from. That's where you learn this is what this organization does. And I think that's a really, important point you made there. Yeah. And unfortunately, sometimes, you know, that budget is some of the first things to go. And that's really a retention strategy to keep people in. We've had people, you know, at new level work come and when they're interviewing for a job, one of the things they say, well, I get coaching, you know, that's a plus. So we know that people really want these things in any company. They want that kind of support. So yeah, we need to, we need to see and we need to keep learning and connecting with learning leaders to keep up with. Because as you've said, it changes over the years. You know, the way companies handle things is very dynamic. So, we need to stay partners so we understand what their needs are.

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Chris: Yeah. And I think that, that we're getting asked a lot more and maybe this was always true, but, how can we be innovative? How can we be different? so I think that learning and HR leaders are being far more bold in the moves that they make, you know, and they want to stay at the need to stay at the forefront and things are moving so, so quickly. So they want to bring innovative solutions, to their leaders and to their people in general.

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Wendy: Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's great. Now you've been involved with hundreds, if not thousands of talent development initiatives over the years. If you could give one piece of advice to HR leaders, what would it be?

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Chris: So I think it would be that it's probably around the theme of personalization, but making it hyper personalized. and also I can unpack that a little bit more. So, this comes back to what I was talking about earlier, that, that we have to kind of be real and recognize that maybe some of the things we've been doing and we've invested a lot of money in aren't working. so I'm referencing here the big investments in E learning platforms, whatever they might be, that I consistently hear on a daily, weekly, monthly basis are getting, you know, 5, 10, maybe 15%, you know, usage, which makes them hugely costly and very inefficient and ineffective. so I think it's about sort of recognizing where things aren't working and looking towards solutions that are hyper personalized, and demand, led.

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Wendy: And if I flip that, what, advice would HR leaders give salespeople?

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Chris: Aha. Well, this is a good one. So I, and this is something I think I know to be true. and I certainly talk to my team about it. I mean, other salespeople, more junior salespeople, is the HR leaders would probably tell salespeople, if they were being open, that please be aware that me investing in anything is fraught with anxiety and a little bit of professional fear. and be aware of that. Be aware of that. It's, you know, when, when any of us make any significant purchases and salespeople for learning and HR solutions are often asking for not small amounts of money, that you recognize that the person on the other end is making a bit of a bet on you, especially if it's the first time they've worked with you. So I think they would say, focus on building trust with me, in whatever way you can. and you know, it's, it's an obvious thing to say. Listen to me. I think they would say, because I hear this from, from agent, I often, I often chat to HR leaders about the whole sales experience. and you know, they, they get fed up of sales people coming along and asking what their business challenges are. It's like, well, they're all broadly the same. You know, we're trying to hit a huge revenue goal that keeps getting bigger and bigger as a company. That's our business challenge. We're dealing with, change and transformation on a constant basis. So these sorts of things are the same. You know, ask me what my challenges are as an HR or learning leader, personally, you know, and then you'll get to the nub of how you can work with me and really partner with me.

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Wendy: Yeah. Ah, wow. We're back to almost where you started in the beginning of personally. It's really about connecting with the person, you know, and getting them. And I don't know if it was you who told me this story the other day, but one of the learning leaders who had just, started with the company maybe six months before was bringing in something and it's exactly as you described it. They were like, I just got here, you need to help me look good. You know, so there needed to be that trust there and asking a lot of questions and not being frustrated when somebody asks a lot of questions because they really, they feel like they're under a microscope. And I think our team does such a good job at that.

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Chris: So, yeah, with, you know, both sides, if sides is the right phrase, you know, are, invested, in success, and they're most invested in their personal, their team, their local success. And if we, you know, if we all get that, we're all just people at the end of the day trying, to make it through. So the more that we understand each other's, Well, the more that we understand each other, the better.

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Wendy: Yeah. And one final question, Chris. What's next for you in your career journey? Like, how do you envision the future of sales in HR, especially in the leadership development space? What do you see happening in the future?

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Chris: I think it's going to become really, really interesting. I mean, firstly, I see my future here at New Level Work, because as you know, it's my happy place. and you know, here's, here's the challenge with, with sales. And again, I talk about This a lot with HR and learning leaders. You know, we kind of get into, get into it a little bit. because often they'll say to me, especially if it's, if it's the first time we're meeting, that, you know, I really, I really don't take many meetings with sales folk, but there was something about your approach and blah, blah, blah. And I think that's really the challenge, is how do we break through the noise. maybe it's a change of the word salesperson because who wants to. I don't want to talk to a salesperson. they're here to hurt me. So I think what's, what's really going to. And we're already on this journey and we have been for many years, but really delivering on this idea of being, ah, a partner of really, you know, understanding. I mean, we're back to the same, the same old pretty straightforward themes here. and obviously, you know, AI is going to, going to change everything and we'll just have to see whether we're all going to be here in 20 years. Well, I won't be. I'll be on a beach somewhere for sure, with a, with a martini. So.

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Wendy: Good. All right. That's how I'll envision you in the future, I guess. Yes, we're going to help so many people, have their best life, through what we do at new level work. And then eventually we will sit back and say, yeah, life was good. Yeah, this has been a good journey.

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Chris: We did good.

Wendy: We did good. And part of the good journey is when you get to work with colleagues who, you know, come from the same, are cut from the same cloth, just like the learning leaders and partners. I've always felt a little bit strange when people call vendors, they call you vendors. I'm not a vendor. I'm your partner. I want everything for you. Well, Chris, this has just been wonderful. Thank you for sharing your philosophy about this. I learned so much that I didn't really think about from a perspective about, you know, the different personalities of learning leaders and salespeople and, partners and how they work together. So thank you for sharing that. And, everyone, you know, this is. Anytime you want to talk to us, you know where to find us in the show notes. There'll be a lot of things there that you'll be able to see. So, Chris, we appreciate you. We appreciate all you do, not only for new level work, but for people out there, because that's where your heart is.

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Chris: Thank you.

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Wendy: Yes. Have a wonderful day, everybody. Take care. Thank you for stopping by. Thank you so much for listening. And in the show notes you will find a, transcription. And also I have a request, would you go on our website, new level work.com and you can actually find this through putting in newlevelwork.com review. We'd love it if you would write a review on the podcast Building Better Managers. We really love feedback. We love feedback in our organization when we do coaching, group coaching, any professional development work. So we would love some feedback here. That would be great. And I think Chris's really amazing conversation here today, about how we need to take care of all the humans in the world. Not so much about sales, but about connecting. So we're glad you came on board with us. Please go look@newlevelwork.com and see, what's up. We have a, really exciting new AI product called Leora. And Leora is going to change things in the world. Everybody's doing AI. We have a human connected with our AI and one, on its own AI. So please go check it out and you can get a demo. If you just go on New Level Work, you'll see where you connect and ask for a demo, see what it's like. You'll learn a lot and you'll learn what we're up to and we'd always love your feedback. So please take care, have a wonderful day and we will see you on, the next podcast.

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Thank you for joining us today. For more information, show notes and any downloads from today's podcast, please visit newlevelwork.com we would also be so appreciative if you'd write a review, go on to New Level Work and you can write a review on your favorite podcast app. It makes a big difference because we want to really grow managers and leaders around the world and we need your help. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful day.

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